Arjen Anthony Lucassen (Ayreon)
December 2007
Your involvement with Stream of Passion is over. What happened?
Basically the whole Stream of Passion thing was set up as a solo project for Marcela because she did such a great job on "The Human Equation". Somehow that morphed into a band that became Stream of Passion. From the beginning I always said, "Listen, I don't want to be in a band. Ayreon is my main project and I always go back to Ayreon." But then they were like, "No, no, you have to be in it, at least on the tour so we can play Ayreon songs." So I did and I played on the album and took part in the tours but at a certain point I told them, "Okay, time to go back to Ayreon now." And they understood. Lori left as well, but they got two new guitar players and a new keyboard player and they're writing songs. They've been here a couple of times to play their songs. They're negotiating with record companies so soon you'll hear about them again. Basically all things were planned this way.
Will they continue with the same musical style?
No, it's different. The first album was kind of dark with a lot of ballads but what I heard the new one is a bit more commercial, more like Within Temptation maybe, that direction.
How do you remember back the tours you did together?
Fantastic. Because I had a lot of shit in the past with other bands with all the sex, drugs and rock 'n roll thing. Of course sex wasn't a problem but the drugs and shit... All tours I've been involved in there were always problems and always shit going on and the tour with Stream of Passion was the first time where there were no egos except of course that tall hippie dude from Holland. (Laughs) So yeah it was really enjoyable.
While preparing the new Ayreon album you had some personal shit to go through. How much of that is public?
It's pretty public I think because I've no secrets for anyone. Basically my wife divorced me because being with a musician is not easy. Even when I was there my head was somewhere up there with music and I could not give her what she needed so we went separate ways but luckily we're still the best of friends. Maybe we even have more contact than we used to have when we were together so that's okay. But then I went back to my old lifestyle with partying and all that and that's nice when you're 20 but it kinda hits you when you are 47 so I got sick and I lost my sense of taste and smell. It's no fun, life gets really boring if you don't taste things, you get your food and it all tastes the same. All in all that got me into a really deep depression, the first in my life really. That was horrible. Luckily I got some pills, which helped me in the first place. And in second place and maybe it's the most important, music is always the best healer. When the ideas started coming I started feeling better.
Did these negative things influence your new album in any way?
Yeah, I think so. All the first tracks I came up with were pretty dark. I even thought that it would be like a pretty dark album. I even called the record company and told them that it'd be a pretty dark album on one CD with just a couple of singers. But then I went to the studio and worked on the songs and somehow all fell into place and the happier ideas started coming and suddenly there was a balance in the material.
Did everything go as planned from there?
Yeah. The beginning is always hard, especially with a dark period. I had no ideas whatsoever because I have to feel good to get inspiration. So in the beginning it was hard but once I got going everything was smooth. I can't think of any problems... well, the usual ones like getting the singers, that's always hard.
You always try to evolve and change from album to album. How do you feel about the new things on the new one?
Mostly I always look to the album before, which in this case is "The Human Equation". That had a really clear storyline. A man in a coma haunted by emotions that were portrayed by singers. It was a simple story. And also the music was quite accessible. This time I wanted to make a darker album and I wanted the lyrics to be more cryptic so people would really have to search. But I've done seven albums now with Ayreon and of course I developed my own sound, so obviously there'll be a lot of references not only lyrically but also musically to previous albums.
Btw, where would you put this album musically in the Ayreon catalogue?
To early to say for me because I can't be objective about it. To me it really sounds really dark and really heavy and really modern but then other people tell me that they think it sounds like "Electric Castle", other people tell me it sounds like "Actual Fantasy" so I have no idea. I think I could tell you in a year or maybe in two years.
The weirdest thing on the album is the title. What does it stand for?
It stands for the letter "Y". It's a binary code for letter "Y" and Y is the planet of the being "Forever" that was introduced on "Electric Castle". And Planet Y was introduced on "Flight of the Migrator". Actually it was Anneke that gave me the idea. She made her own melodies for one of the tracks and she sang like fake words. She sang "January, February, March, April, May..." I was like, "Shit, what am I gonna do with that?" And suddenly I came up with this binary code, "zero, one, one" because I thought that binary could be a nice universal thing. And then we put that sample on the Internet with Anneke singing in binary and the reactions were so great. People seemed to really love it. The original idea was to call the album "The Sixth Extinction", which is of course a tongue breaker. So suddenly I got the idea to why not give it that title and people all said I was crazy. When I made it public there was a lot of talk on the message board. People said it was stupid and nerdy and people can't pronounce it and can't get it in the record shop. But then they wrote like 20 pages about it, so it's something you talk about. I like that.
"January, February, March" would have been a better idea but you couldn't do that because it was already taken by the Boney M.
(Laughs) Yeah. Are you sure it was Boney M?
Yeah, it was called the "Calendar Song."
That was a horrible song.
It's an impossible task but could you give me an insight of the story?
I told you about "Forever" which was this alien on "Electric Castle" that did these experiments with humans to test their emotions because he lost his own emotions. This time I wanted to have a look at his planet and find out why did he lose his emotions and we find out that. His planet is actually a water planet. There are all these machines coming out of the water and these beings had become completely dependant on technology. The machines keeping them alive but there's no more struggle to survive, no more emotions, so what's the use in living? So they decide to create a new race by sending their DNA out into outer space and this DNA lands on planet Earth and it mixes with the beings there creating humans, so in a way I'm explaining the missing link here. So now you know, it's "Forever".
The lyrics of "Web of Lies" is really weird. It sounds pretty tongue-in-cheek to me.
Yeah, that lyrics is definitely tongue-in-cheek. It's about Internet dating and how utterly stupid it is. A friend of mine is addicted to it. Internet dating is like a candy store, he keeps finding these women, he bangs them but it doesn't make him happy at all. It's about people becoming very superficial and that's what the song is about. It's like a parallel to what's happening on that planet too. There are stupid people all over and that's what is really happening. There's another ironic song on the album called "The Truth is in here", which is really tongue-in-cheek too. It's about this hippie dude. (Laughs)
You played almost every instrument on the album as you usually do. Your only help is Ed on drums. Never thought about getting a bass player too?
No, not really. People often ask me to produce their albums but I can only produce an album if I use exactly all the sounds that I like. For the bass it's just have to have this sound that fits to the drums and that fits to the guitars and I need to have the keyboard sounds that fit together. This is the only way I can work. If there would be another bass player the whole sound would be gone, at least it would be different. I'm a horrible control freak, a horrible egomaniac, I gave up trying to work with other people, I'm not annoying them anymore.
Isn't there any player that you'd love to play together with?
Well, I would love to have a couple of solos of people like David Gilmour, Steve Vai. I wouldn't mind if they played a little solo on my album.
And Lemmy from Motörhead of course.
Yeah, and Lemmy singing the whole album. I mean if you got Lemmy who needs other singers. I mean all these different emotions in his voice. That's scary. (Laughs)
Let's see the instrumentalists of the album. The names of Lori, Joost and Mike are given on any Ayreon album but how about Derek Sherinian and Tomas Bodin?
I saw The Flower Kings live and was really impressed by his playing and his sounds. It's one of my favourite solos on the album because it's so organic, so real. It's such a dark solo and it's both atmospheric and virtuoso. I'm really glad I chose him for that part. And on the other part I needed a wild and crazy fast solo and the guy I thought of was Derek Sherinian because this is typically the style and sound he's known for. You can always recognise his style and that's the kind of player I like.
Can we go through the singers?
Sure!
Ehm... Arjen Lucassen.
I thought you wanted to talk about singers. (Laughs)
Okay, Tom Englund from Evergrey.
The first contact with him was five years ago when he contacted me if I would have produced Evergrey. That got me listening to Evergrey and I heard his voice and it's huge. It's very emotional so I sent him a mail back that I don't produce other bands but I would love to work with him one day.
Steve Lee.
I've known him for a long time because we played with Vengeance in Italy and he was supporting us with his band. Then he gave me a demo of his band and I played it at home. He was the drummer in that band but sang on one of the tracks and he was very good. When our singer left in Vengeance we auditioned him and 20 years ago he stayed at my place for a couple of days to work on songs but it never materialised. So he was always on my list but he was always too busy because Gotthard is huge. They sell like platinum in Switzerland and Germany. But this time luckily he had time so he came over. I think he's one of the best in the world.
Daniel Gildenlöw who I told you about and recommended you 7 years ago...
(Laughs) Yeah, I know. And with you countless fans asked for him. He was the most wanted name together with Hansi Kürsch. Obviously I checked him out and Pain of Salvation is not easy to get into but once you did you discover his genius. It was funny because he's like a joker. I really expected a really dark and serious person but I think he opened the door with a Darth Vader helmet on. (Laughs)
Hansi Kürsch.
He was, as I said, together with Daniel Gildenlöw the most requested singer so I checked him out and his voice is unique. It's like this medieval metal bard and I worked with him and besides being the talent he is, I think he's the nicest guy that I met. He's a guy who really deserves the success he has.
Jonas Renkse.
His last album "The Great Cold Distance" was my favourite album of the year when it was released. From that moment on I loved his voice and his melodies. He was the first guy I asked for this record. He heard about me, he called Mikael Åkerfeldt and he was like, "What about it?" but Mikael told him, "No, this is great. You should do it." I like it also because it's an odd choice you wouldn't expect him on a rock opera.
I also recommended Jørn Lande to you ages ago when he wasn't that overused as he is today. But he's still a good choice...
Yeah, he's a great singer. He's probably the best in the world with Russell (Russell Allen, Symphony X) and Steve (Steve Lee, Gotthard). The reason I didn't ask him was because he did so many things and also because he sounded so much like David Coverdale. But then the time came when I suddenly realised that he had a style on his own and then I decided to get him for the album. He just had to be there. I had these parts that were screaming for his name.
The first girl, Magali...
She sent me a CD like 8 years ago and I never had the time to listen to it. When I finally got to it I contacted her and she told me that in the meantime she did Beautiful Sin, a project she did with Uli Kusch. I listened to it and I was completely blown away. She's just a tiny little Belgian girl with enormous talent.
Bob Catley, the legend.
Bob Catley is the legend. Of course as a kid I listened to the Magnum stuff like the Storyteller's Night. I already was in contact with him for the previous album. His manager offered his services but I was full of singers for The Human Equation so he was an obvious choice for this album.
How about Ty Tabor of King's X?
I love King's X and I love his songs always more than the songs with Doug because he's got that Beatles touch. He's a huge Beatles fan. So I sent him this track and immediately he said, "Yeah, that's something I'd like to do." And I love his solo stuff as well.
Liselotte Hegt.
I've known her for years because she's a reviewer for Aardshock magazine and I always met here everywhere and I liked her vocals in the band she had at that time. But then she did this Dial thing together with Kristoffer Gildenlöw and I loved their debut album. I heard it and immediately wanted to have that voice on my album.
And what should we know about Phideaux Xavier, Wudstik and Marjan Welman? Honestly I never heard about them before...
Phideaux is an American guy who does stuff like me. He does these huge concept albums and I'm a big big fan of his music. He's in my top ten of all time and you should give it a listen. It's very prog. His last album is the best. It's called "Doomsday Afternoon". He was actually on the Ayreon mailing list, he was a fan. Now I did something on his album and he did something on my own. Wudstik... it was a funny story. It was this Dutch hip hop guy on MySpace wanting to be a friend and I was like, "WTF?!" I went to his site and heard all these hip hop songs but there was also one track where he sang and he sang great. So I contacted him and he was like, "Oh, let me sing a fucking scream on your album, please please!" Actually he's a big talent and it's funny. A hip hop dude that loves Pain of Salvation and Dream Theater and Ayreon. Marjan was one of the four girls who ended up on the list for "The Human Equation". Eventually I chose Marcela but she was one of the girls as well. Later on I saw her again singing in an Ayreon cover band and she has great charisma and a great voice so I wanted to give her this chance.
While Floor and Simone seem like obvious choices for Ayreon I bet you were pretty happy to hear that Anneke left The Gathering...
(Laughs) Absolutely. Otherwise she wouldn't have done it. But I didn't know when I asked her. I had these parts where I really needed her voice so I just asked her and she said yes and a week later I heard that she left The Gathering. And Floor... I needed someone who could have a fight with Jørn and the only singer I could think of was Floor. And it's also nice that she's a big Jørn Lande fan. That makes it extra special.
Now you should also say something about Simone.
Simone? Besides from being one of most beautiful creatures on our planet she has the charisma and not only on stage but also in her voice. She just has a beautiful voice. I used her a little bit differently than on the Epica albums. She's not as operatic on Ayreon as she is in her own music.
Did you fly in most of the singers?
Actually I flew them all in except for Phideaux and Ty Tabor because they were only doing one song or half a song. And to fly them in all the way from the US for that wasn't necessary. I explained clearly what I needed and that's what I got. I flew to Daniel's studio in Eskilstuna to record him but basically all the other singers came here.
Were there any singers that you asked but they couldn't do it?
Yeah, as always. I tried to get Ian Gillan and it came very close. At a certain point I always have to decide on the singers because I have to write the lyrics. I can't wait forever. Ian Gillan was interested but it didn't work out. Steve Walsh didn't have time. I think I contacted a few more singers and it's always impossible to get singers outside the prog and metal world because unfortunately for a lot of people prog and metal are still dirty words.
How about Alice Cooper?
Well, he was on Avantasia, the bastard. I hate him for that. He's second hand now. I don't want him. (Laughs) Of course I do. I got very close. I got to his personal manager Brian Renfield Nelson and offered loads of money but somehow it didn't work out.
You've been enjoying some great live stuff with Stream of Passion. You have some fans out there. How about putting together some sort of a band to play Ayreon songs?
Well, Ayreon was never set up to be a live band. Logistically and financially impossible. People ask me to do it at least once but what they forget that you have to rehearse a couple of months before doing any gigs and tours. And you need those singers for a couple of months to rehearse with them and that's the problem because you're gonna have to pay them per day and they have to be available for a couple of months. If you rehearse for a month it would cost you a fortune. The Star One thing cost me a lot of money because it was only 7-8 shows and there was a lot of investment there. So that's really the problem. It would be a lot of work and a lot of money and basically not the thing I wanna do. It would be possible to set it up with unknown singers. You just hire a couple of singers for half a year, then you can do it like a theatre production but I guess that wouldn't be the same. Also if you take a song like "Age of Shadows", there's nine singers in that. I mean how are you gonna do that live? That's the problem. As an example I always say that imagine doing Jesus Christ Superstar with three people. It's like, "You are Jesus and Judas and Maria and you are..." (Laughs) It's just so hard.
But I mean give me Ian Gillan alone and let him sing the entire rock opera or the phonebook or whatever and I'd be happy. You can call it Jesus Christ Phonebook if you like.
(Laughs) Yeah, sure. That's the main reason I like Ian Gillan. That was his best performance. Definitely. Out of all versions of Jesus Christ Superstar that's the best one with him and the guy that had the role of Pilate, Barry Dennen. But he was also in the movie. That's quality.
What's next from Arjen Lucassen?
No idea. I never plan ahead and I always empty after an Ayreon album. I'll just have to wait for inspirations.
What is that you won't do for sure?
Another Ayreon. There won't be another Ayreon now.
And there won't be a new Ambeon either.
I would love to but Astrid isn't doing very well. She has some personal problems. I wanted to have her on this album but she said she wasn't ready. Any time she wanna do it I'll be there.
And what about Star One? Is it dead and buried?
No, but it was so magic to get these people together and to do that tour that I'm a bit afraid that I won't be able to recreate that magic. And I would love to do with the same people but I'm not sure if that would work out. It's just scary. I would love to do another one but I wouldn't know in which format.
You can always do a Star Two.
Yeah, it would be Star Two. Definitely. (Laughs)